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	<title>Comments on: Editorial: Non-Chalcedonian Orthodoxy on OH.org</title>
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	<link>http://orthodoxhistory.org/2011/01/28/editorial-non-chalcedonian-orthodoxy-on-oh-org/</link>
	<description>The Society for Orthodox Christian History in the Americas</description>
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		<title>By: Collator</title>
		<link>http://orthodoxhistory.org/2011/01/28/editorial-non-chalcedonian-orthodoxy-on-oh-org/comment-page-1/#comment-1315</link>
		<dc:creator>Collator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Feb 2011 01:49:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orthodoxhistory.org/?p=3616#comment-1315</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You have a point with regard to conventions. But there&#039;s a difference between old conventions, sanctioned by time and usage, if wrongly (such as Catholic or Roman Catholic for the papal church) and new conventions such as the one in question. As far as I know, the term &quot;Oriental Orthodox&quot; is only about fifty years old, going back to the first unofficial dialogue between the two sides in the early &#039;60s. The continuing dialogue has based its conclusions on extremely questionable theological and ecclesiological presuppositions, one of which is precisely the use of this term. It is still premature to accept this convention, especially when perfectly serviceable and relatively unoffensive terms, such as &quot;Non-Chalcedonian&quot; or &quot;Anti-Chalcedonian&quot; are available. When does something become a convention by which everyone has to abide? When some of the interested parties decide so, without consulting anybody else?

(We could, of course, just continue to use the terminology sanctioned by the tradition of the Fathers, and just call them &quot;Monophysites.&quot; The Fathers probably knew better what they were talking about than our contemporary theologians and dialogians.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You have a point with regard to conventions. But there&#8217;s a difference between old conventions, sanctioned by time and usage, if wrongly (such as Catholic or Roman Catholic for the papal church) and new conventions such as the one in question. As far as I know, the term &#8220;Oriental Orthodox&#8221; is only about fifty years old, going back to the first unofficial dialogue between the two sides in the early &#8217;60s. The continuing dialogue has based its conclusions on extremely questionable theological and ecclesiological presuppositions, one of which is precisely the use of this term. It is still premature to accept this convention, especially when perfectly serviceable and relatively unoffensive terms, such as &#8220;Non-Chalcedonian&#8221; or &#8220;Anti-Chalcedonian&#8221; are available. When does something become a convention by which everyone has to abide? When some of the interested parties decide so, without consulting anybody else?</p>
<p>(We could, of course, just continue to use the terminology sanctioned by the tradition of the Fathers, and just call them &#8220;Monophysites.&#8221; The Fathers probably knew better what they were talking about than our contemporary theologians and dialogians.)</p>
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		<title>By: Fr. Andrew S. Damick</title>
		<link>http://orthodoxhistory.org/2011/01/28/editorial-non-chalcedonian-orthodoxy-on-oh-org/comment-page-1/#comment-1312</link>
		<dc:creator>Fr. Andrew S. Damick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Feb 2011 14:56:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orthodoxhistory.org/?p=3616#comment-1312</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t think there really is one absolutely precise term.  The believers in question themselves reject &lt;i&gt;Monophysite&lt;/i&gt;, associating it as they do with the heretic Eutyches, whom they also anathematize.  The ones I&#039;ve spoken to and read prefer &lt;i&gt;Miaphysite&lt;/i&gt;, but of course that could mean various things, too.

In any event, terminology is mainly (though not exclusively) a function of convention.  Yes, &lt;i&gt;Eastern&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;Oriental&lt;/i&gt; have the same literal meaning, though even outside ecclesiastical settings, their senses in English differ.  (No one would say I live in &quot;Oriental Pennsylvania,&quot; for instance.)  Likewise, the church whom we conventionally refer to as &lt;i&gt;Roman Catholic&lt;/i&gt; should by Orthodox standards yield up its name for our own exclusive use.  (Indeed, in the Middle East, Orthodox Christians are referred to in Arabic and Turkish as &quot;Romans.&quot;)

But in the end, one must communicate, and one often fails to do so by ideologically avoiding the common terminology, even if its literal meanings are imprecise or even controversial.  Believe you me, I love precision in language&#8212;I got my undergraduate degree in English literature.  But the beauty of our language also requires that we not walk around saying &quot;those churches which are in communion following the Council of Chalcedon and are generally found among the Copts, Armenians, Syriac, Ethiopian, Eritrean and Indian peoples&quot; too often, lest one inspire the eyes of one&#039;s listeners gently (or perhaps none too gently) to roll back into their heads as we teeter over the precipice of soporific irrelevance, something public speakers do alarmingly often.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think there really is one absolutely precise term.  The believers in question themselves reject <i>Monophysite</i>, associating it as they do with the heretic Eutyches, whom they also anathematize.  The ones I&#8217;ve spoken to and read prefer <i>Miaphysite</i>, but of course that could mean various things, too.</p>
<p>In any event, terminology is mainly (though not exclusively) a function of convention.  Yes, <i>Eastern</i> and <i>Oriental</i> have the same literal meaning, though even outside ecclesiastical settings, their senses in English differ.  (No one would say I live in &#8220;Oriental Pennsylvania,&#8221; for instance.)  Likewise, the church whom we conventionally refer to as <i>Roman Catholic</i> should by Orthodox standards yield up its name for our own exclusive use.  (Indeed, in the Middle East, Orthodox Christians are referred to in Arabic and Turkish as &#8220;Romans.&#8221;)</p>
<p>But in the end, one must communicate, and one often fails to do so by ideologically avoiding the common terminology, even if its literal meanings are imprecise or even controversial.  Believe you me, I love precision in language&mdash;I got my undergraduate degree in English literature.  But the beauty of our language also requires that we not walk around saying &#8220;those churches which are in communion following the Council of Chalcedon and are generally found among the Copts, Armenians, Syriac, Ethiopian, Eritrean and Indian peoples&#8221; too often, lest one inspire the eyes of one&#8217;s listeners gently (or perhaps none too gently) to roll back into their heads as we teeter over the precipice of soporific irrelevance, something public speakers do alarmingly often.</p>
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		<title>By: Collator</title>
		<link>http://orthodoxhistory.org/2011/01/28/editorial-non-chalcedonian-orthodoxy-on-oh-org/comment-page-1/#comment-1311</link>
		<dc:creator>Collator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Feb 2011 18:43:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orthodoxhistory.org/?p=3616#comment-1311</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Fr. Andrew,
   Bless! I saw you at the Florovsky Symposium but didn&#039;t get a chance to introduce myself.

   I am of the opinion that the Christology of the Non-Chaledonians is not Orthodox, but agree with you on the usefulness of including information about them on this blog.
   One problem I still have, though, is the use of the term &quot;Oriental Orthodox&quot; to designate them. It is a euphemism, so to speak, since &quot;Eastern&quot; and &quot;Oriental&quot; mean precisely the same thing (just from Germanic and Latin roots, respectively). It also basically accepts the results of the theological dialogue thus far, i.e. that our Christologies are the same. As mentioned already, I think this conclusion to be in error, and in any case to be premature. If one is to leave the question open, at least for the sake of discussion and inquiry, as you seem to be trying to do in your article here, it makes more sense to consistently use a neutral term, such as Non-Chalcedonian. It is, of course, a vague term (technically the Church of the East, i.e. Nestorians, is also non-Chalcedonian!) but is less offensive than the more precise &quot;Monophysite.&quot;

(I personally prefer the latter term, because it precisely points out the problem with their Christology that should not be swept under the rug, but I&#039;m willing to avoid it in certain scholarly contexts such as this blog.)

In Christ,
Nick Marinides]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Fr. Andrew,<br />
   Bless! I saw you at the Florovsky Symposium but didn&#8217;t get a chance to introduce myself.</p>
<p>   I am of the opinion that the Christology of the Non-Chaledonians is not Orthodox, but agree with you on the usefulness of including information about them on this blog.<br />
   One problem I still have, though, is the use of the term &#8220;Oriental Orthodox&#8221; to designate them. It is a euphemism, so to speak, since &#8220;Eastern&#8221; and &#8220;Oriental&#8221; mean precisely the same thing (just from Germanic and Latin roots, respectively). It also basically accepts the results of the theological dialogue thus far, i.e. that our Christologies are the same. As mentioned already, I think this conclusion to be in error, and in any case to be premature. If one is to leave the question open, at least for the sake of discussion and inquiry, as you seem to be trying to do in your article here, it makes more sense to consistently use a neutral term, such as Non-Chalcedonian. It is, of course, a vague term (technically the Church of the East, i.e. Nestorians, is also non-Chalcedonian!) but is less offensive than the more precise &#8220;Monophysite.&#8221;</p>
<p>(I personally prefer the latter term, because it precisely points out the problem with their Christology that should not be swept under the rug, but I&#8217;m willing to avoid it in certain scholarly contexts such as this blog.)</p>
<p>In Christ,<br />
Nick Marinides</p>
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		<title>By: Isa Almisry</title>
		<link>http://orthodoxhistory.org/2011/01/28/editorial-non-chalcedonian-orthodoxy-on-oh-org/comment-page-1/#comment-1271</link>
		<dc:creator>Isa Almisry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Jan 2011 01:41:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orthodoxhistory.org/?p=3616#comment-1271</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My experience is that most Chalcedonian Orthodox who have problems such as which prompted this post stem from a) the Oriental Orthodox even more than the Eastern Orthodox are ethnically defined: the Coptic Liturgy is not the same as the Syriac Liturgy, which is fine: the EO in Egypt used the same as the Copts and the EO in Syria used the same as the Syriacs until the Patriarch of Antioch in Constantinople, Balsamon, suppressed them in favor of the Constantinopolitan. And so b) most EO, not being in a country where a OO reside, have the luxury of not having to deal with OO, and many exploit that.

As an example, I&#039;ve had too many arguments with EO about the OO canonization of Eutyches, or rather the lack thereof: the OO anathematized Eutyches.  But many EO, particularly those who have insularity problems of their own with &quot;world Orthodoxy&quot; prefer the OO of polemics, rather the actual OO believers and what they believe.

On this, a history of Orthodoxy in America will play a large role, as, unlike most of the &quot;Mother Churches,&quot; both EO and OO, herein the &quot;diaspora&quot;both EO and OO are in the same boat as far as American society is concerned, and live side by side.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My experience is that most Chalcedonian Orthodox who have problems such as which prompted this post stem from a) the Oriental Orthodox even more than the Eastern Orthodox are ethnically defined: the Coptic Liturgy is not the same as the Syriac Liturgy, which is fine: the EO in Egypt used the same as the Copts and the EO in Syria used the same as the Syriacs until the Patriarch of Antioch in Constantinople, Balsamon, suppressed them in favor of the Constantinopolitan. And so b) most EO, not being in a country where a OO reside, have the luxury of not having to deal with OO, and many exploit that.</p>
<p>As an example, I&#8217;ve had too many arguments with EO about the OO canonization of Eutyches, or rather the lack thereof: the OO anathematized Eutyches.  But many EO, particularly those who have insularity problems of their own with &#8220;world Orthodoxy&#8221; prefer the OO of polemics, rather the actual OO believers and what they believe.</p>
<p>On this, a history of Orthodoxy in America will play a large role, as, unlike most of the &#8220;Mother Churches,&#8221; both EO and OO, herein the &#8220;diaspora&#8221;both EO and OO are in the same boat as far as American society is concerned, and live side by side.</p>
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		<title>By: JTeusink</title>
		<link>http://orthodoxhistory.org/2011/01/28/editorial-non-chalcedonian-orthodoxy-on-oh-org/comment-page-1/#comment-1268</link>
		<dc:creator>JTeusink</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Jan 2011 19:33:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orthodoxhistory.org/?p=3616#comment-1268</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I for one would love to see more about the Orthodox Churches that do not accept Chalcedon on this site!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I for one would love to see more about the Orthodox Churches that do not accept Chalcedon on this site!</p>
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		<title>By: davidpwithun</title>
		<link>http://orthodoxhistory.org/2011/01/28/editorial-non-chalcedonian-orthodoxy-on-oh-org/comment-page-1/#comment-1267</link>
		<dc:creator>davidpwithun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Jan 2011 18:46:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orthodoxhistory.org/?p=3616#comment-1267</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve had &quot;discussions&quot; with at least one of those who caused the controversy there on Facebook. He&#039;s a member of one of the Old Calendarist (neo-Donatist) schismatic groups. I wouldn&#039;t worry too much about his opinion. You all are doing a great job here, Father, and I look forward to seeing more posts, including future ones about the Oriental Churches. And I pray, as all true (not &quot;True&quot; -- if you catch my meaning) Orthodox should for a reunion between the Oriental Orthodox and the Orthodox Church that is in faith, in love, in truth, and in God&#039;s time.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve had &#8220;discussions&#8221; with at least one of those who caused the controversy there on Facebook. He&#8217;s a member of one of the Old Calendarist (neo-Donatist) schismatic groups. I wouldn&#8217;t worry too much about his opinion. You all are doing a great job here, Father, and I look forward to seeing more posts, including future ones about the Oriental Churches. And I pray, as all true (not &#8220;True&#8221; &#8212; if you catch my meaning) Orthodox should for a reunion between the Oriental Orthodox and the Orthodox Church that is in faith, in love, in truth, and in God&#8217;s time.</p>
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